View Transcript
Speakers:
- Haley: Host, CMS Wire
- Nathan Loveless: VP of Enterprise, Blueshift
- Karin Matthews: Senior Manager, Digital Marketing, Taubman Company
Welcome and Introduction
Haley: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's webinar: "Connecting with Customers in an Ever-Changing Environment." Thank you for joining us. We'll start in just a moment.
I'm Haley, your host today. This webinar is brought to you by Blueshift and hosted by CMS Wire. It will be about 40 minutes long, with the last 20 minutes dedicated to Q&A. Please use the Q&A button in your window to ask questions; we'll do our best to answer them all, and for those we don't get to, we'll follow up.
If you experience any technical issues, click the "Ask a Question" tab, and I'll assist you directly. You can also chat with fellow attendees in the "Audience Chat" tab. I'm producing today's webinar from the far southwest suburbs of Chicago. Let me know where you're joining from!
A little about CMS Wire: We were founded in 2003 and cover three primary topic areas: digital customer experience, digital workplace, and information management. Find out more at www.cmswire.com.
I'm very happy to be joined by today's sponsors, Blueshift. I've worked with Blueshift before, and the team is fantastic. It's always a pleasure to see them on my schedule, so I'm very happy to have their support. You can find out more at www.blueshift.com.
Now, I'd like to introduce our guests: Nathan Loveless, VP of Enterprise at Blueshift, and Karin Matthews, Senior Manager of Digital Marketing at The Taubman Company. Welcome, Nathan and Karin! I'll now disappear into the background and let Nathan take it away.
Nathan Loveless: Thank you so much, Haley. Good morning and good afternoon, depending on where you're calling in from. It's fun doing these in the middle of the day, as you get to chat with people from all over the place.
My name is Nathan Loveless. As Haley said, I'm the VP of Enterprise here at Blueshift. Blueshift is a smart hub CDP in this marketing technology ecosystem that combines an intelligent, data-savvy customer experience platform with a full customer data platform. We partner with growing companies all over the world, one of which is Taubman Company.
Karin Matthews has joined us today for a conversation, as there really is no more noisy space than the marketing technology space today. Karin, I would love to learn more about your experience. I'm sure the folks listening are excited to learn from what you've experienced over the last year and a half, a year and a half that was maybe not typical in the history of Taubman.
Karin Matthews: Yes, most definitely.
Spotlight on The Taubman Company
Nathan Loveless: Karin, for those folks who may not be as familiar with Taubman, can you tell us a little bit about the organization, just to ground the conversation and help people understand the world in which you live?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, hi, everyone, and thank you for joining today. Taubman owns, manages, and/or leases 26 premier regional, super-regional, and outlet shopping malls across the U.S. and Asia. It's a very fun, interesting time for retail and shopping. We've had a very exciting year and a half that I can't wait to share more about today.
Nathan Loveless: That would be great. Well, part of that, of course, is your role within the organization. We know your title, but sometimes the title can be misleading as to the total span we get to play with on a daily basis. So I would love to learn a little bit more about your role at Taubman and share a little bit more about not only your role, but the team that you get to work with on a daily basis.
Karin Matthews: Sure, absolutely. The corporate marketing team at Taubman is responsible for consumer marketing for 17 malls out of those 26 across the U.S. and Puerto Rico, with the ultimate goal of driving traffic and sales to each of the malls. I'm the Senior Manager of Digital Marketing. I lead the digital branch of the corporate marketing team. There are three of us on the digital team, so we are small, but we are mighty, and we have a lot of fun.
We work closely with the local marketing staff at each of the different malls across the country. We work with them to plan and execute different strategies across all of the different channels, with the exception actually of social media, which is pretty unique and is a change that we made last year. We recently shifted the management of social media from under digital to our brand team to better align with other goals around content and programming and customer service. That was a unique change for us, but it's one that's been working really well.
Nathan Loveless: And when you think about that team, so you have the social component there. How do you think of, do you have any delineation within your team across different organizations? Or is it one team, one mission? Or how do you think about your team's structure in that digital environment?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, great question. That's another thing. We really restructured everything. I mentioned social, but we really restructured our overall digital team this past year. We took a look at our goals for 2022 and where we were at today, and asked if our team was set up to be able to deliver on that. We felt like it really wasn't. We were doing some things really well, but we thought this was the perfect opportunity to make some changes.
On that note, we really restructured to, as I mentioned, there are three of us. We now have:
- One person focused on our paid channels, driving acquisition.
- Another person focused on our lifecycle marketing and owned channels.
Having them focus on owning acquisition separately and owning lifecycle marketing separately has really paid dividends in terms of productivity, but also the quality of the work we're putting out.
Nathan Loveless: That's amazing. So you really do think about those as different moments in the customer experience almost when you're thinking about acquisition. Well, so, I mean, retail is one portion of the market. Owning properties that then also have retailers as one of your customers and supporting some of those. What a fascinating market to have navigated over the last year. That sounds like it probably led to some interesting conversations, if not for some late nights over the course of this process.
Karin Matthews: Yes, to say the least. Yes.
Navigating the Pandemic and Shifting Customer Behavior
Nathan Loveless: So you talked a little bit about the team structure. I imagine that's part of how you navigated the last year. But if you wouldn't mind sharing, how did the team navigate that year? When talking about COVID and all of the other components, what were the things that you really navigated with that organization and with that small but mighty team over the last year?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, that's a great question. I will say our team very early on in the pandemic understood the importance of being flexible. We realized pretty quickly that what we thought we were going to be working on in 2020 and 2021 was pretty quickly upended.
When the malls were closed, we had to quickly develop and execute an entirely new messaging strategy in order for us to stay relevant. Previously, we were putting out messaging like, "Hey, come shop at the mall." And all of a sudden, the malls were closed. So what do we put out there that helps us stay connected to those customers during that time? We had to completely pivot there.
Once the malls reopened, we started to see some pretty noticeable shifts in who was shopping with us. The regular shopper we saw pre-COVID wasn't necessarily the same shopper that came back. I mean that both in terms of demographics; in many cases, we saw younger shoppers coming to our malls. But also where they were coming from. Tourism is a very important part of our business. Not surprisingly, we've seen far fewer tourists from air travel and more customers driving in from different states and different markets, and their travel patterns have changed. So how we capture that person during their travel planning completely changed as well.
We also developed an incredible program called Community First that was all about the different ways that shopping at each of our malls actually supports the local community. That's been a very successful campaign for us, too. All that to say, we made a lot of changes in the last year and a half. And now we are outpacing where we thought we would be at this point in terms of traffic and sales, which is great news. So we're feeling very, very optimistic as we head into the holiday season.
Nathan Loveless: That's amazing. And if you had asked yourself a year ago, where would you be right now? Would you be ahead of where you wanted? Or is this where you wanted to be?
Karin Matthews: Definitely, definitely ahead, which I'm so pleased to be able to say. I mean, we put in, as you said, a lot of late nights. We definitely put the work in to make this all come together and make it happen. But yeah, I'm happy to be saying we are definitely ahead of where we thought we would be at by this point.
Data and Marketing Strategy in a Dynamic Environment
Nathan Loveless: So when you went through that process, you talked about two different programs: one that was largely community-structured, involving one kind of data, customer, and flow. And then you've got another one around tourists, and how do you manage those? As being part of the digital team, there's a transition that I think is probably representative of a lot of folks listening: moving to being more specific, more data-driven, and more responsive. You even talked about measurement.
As you think about that relationship between data, customer experience, and customer expectation (which you mentioned with the change in demographics), how do you even think about that relationship between data and marketing strategy after a year that's been as dynamic as this last one?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, it's a great question. I think, it may be a little obvious to say that data needs to inform your strategy. For me, I think it's helpful to kind of think about two different types of data:
- Performance Data: This helps you identify what's working, what's not, where there's room for improvement, and what efforts you should be prioritizing.
- Customer Data: This enables you to segment and personalize, truly delivering that relevant customer experience.
I think those two pieces combined – looking at what's my performance data and what is my customer data, and trying to marry the two – is where you can create the opportunity to manage customer expectations and hopefully even exceed them by delivering on that experience.
The other thing I would say there that we really try to do carefully is I think that it's critical to be responsible and respectful in considering what types of data you're collecting from your customers and what you're asking them to provide. If you don't have a plan or strategy for how you're going to use the data, then it might not be the right time to ask for it or collect it. So I would be careful about collecting data just for the sake of collecting, or ensuring you know how you're going to use that to provide value to the customer. So there is a value exchange there, right?
Nathan Loveless: So when you think about that, you talked about the performance data and then you talked about customer data. Is there a conversation between those two, or do you use one with the other in dialogue, or do they exist in isolation? Or how do you think about that sort of backend data structure, customer data supporting performance strategy or even performance data supporting customer strategy? Do you think about it in those terms?
Karin Matthews: Yes. And I think they go hand in hand. And I'll be honest, we're still figuring it out. This is a place where there's a lot of room for learning and figuring out what works and what doesn't. We are certainly in that space right now. But, particularly through Blueshift, we've really concentrated our Blueshift efforts on the email channel and our email marketing efforts. We are just going through the process right now of onboarding our mobile apps and being able to do push notifications and in-app messaging.
Part of it, I think, is looking at your customer data to see where they want to be messaged and where they are engaging, and what is working for that particular customer, delivering the message in a channel that resonates with them. On the performance side, I'll be honest, there have been cases where we've had customers say, "This is how we want to receive it," but then the performance data doesn't show that. So trying to figure out if they are behaving in the way that they say they're going to, or that they think they're going to. Sometimes our behaviors aren't exactly in alignment with what we say we're going to do.
Nathan Loveless: That happens.
Karin Matthews: Exactly.
Nathan Loveless: Within that, then. Are you and the team starting to think about then fundamentally the marketing programs in a different way? Or is this, I mean, you talked about some of the nature of we've got an email program, we've got a paid program, we've done some delineation even in your organizational structure. Are you starting to think about some of the, just the idea of a marketing program through a different lens?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, I would say, I kind of touched on this earlier, but there are really two things that come to mind in the way that we're approaching this going into next year.
- First is a renewed focus on acquisition. As first-party data becomes more important, we need to not only grow the size of our database, but also the depth of our database, and really trying to understand who's shopping with us and how we can deliver a good experience for those customers.
- Which leads me to the second piece of how we're thinking about it is the lifecycle marketing and the nurturing of these new customers. Once we do get them into our database, how do we really make that an effective program?
It's not that we haven't looked at those two pieces all along, but I think that we're looking at the relationship between the two of them differently as we head into 2022.
Nathan Loveless: That's interesting. So a couple of words that get bandied about, right? You hear about multi-channel, omnichannel, many-channel. There are a number of different ways to describe this. Do you think about that continuum or how do you think about even the definitions of some of those terms? Because I know that even one of the things that can be challenging, even with internal conversations, I'm sure you're having this with some of the team members you have there, is just aligning around nomenclature. What do we call the thing that we're doing? And what is the name of the thing we're trying to go to? So I would love, maybe even just at the highest level, when you think of multi-channel and omnichannel, which are two words we hear all over the place, what's the difference for you as you're thinking about the structure with the team?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think really sums up a lot of the changes that we've made this year. So to me, multi-channel is executing on multiple channels, but it's a bit of a siloed approach, at least it was in our case. We were executing on social and website and our app and email and all these things, but they were really sort of existing independently. In our case, it was leading not only to a lot of inconsistency, but also a lot of duplicated efforts. We had different people separately developing content for different channels, even though they were working on the same theme. For example, we might be working on something for Valentine's Day, and it would look completely different on social than it did in our emails that went out or on our website.
We also have a challenge in what we call the corporate team works on developing national content that could, in theory, be used by any mall. And how do we balance that against specific stores or specific events or happenings at a particular mall and what's happening locally? So really to solve for this, earlier this year, we established a new content committee made up of stakeholders, not only from every channel that we're putting out content on, but also a mix of corporate and local team members, just to kind of get our arms around everything that we're producing and how can we better produce and how can we better share content. It's definitely a work in progress. We've had this committee in place since about March, and we're tweaking things along the way, but it's already made a very big impact. As I said earlier, both in terms of productivity and the quality of the content that we're putting out. And really, the other piece of that is we've put in place or we're working on putting in place a measurement strategy for this. So, how are we evaluating what content our customers are engaging with and what channels they're engaging with, and really looking at it as a big picture instead of a bunch of individual channels.
Nathan Loveless: Oh, that's interesting. So when you think about that, the structure to support omnichannel versus multi-channel, one of the definitions or one of the big distinctions I saw there is it's more aligned around the customer than it is around the channel itself, is what it sounds like. I mean, if you're thinking about content, that's about what does this person need, regardless of how it gets there. Not I have a particular KPI associated with my open rate associated with email specifically. Not that that's not important, but it's a separate consideration.
Karin Matthews: Correct.
Nathan Loveless: So outside of content, are you thinking about other examples of that omnichannel kind of strategy or is, or is content really one of the main focuses that you're starting to place with? And maybe even another piece is, as you think about omnichannel being about the person, how are you thinking about that, the, those moments and understanding those moments within the customer?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, you know, maybe the best way for me to answer that would just to kind of use an example of a program that we're just launching now. So I would say we definitely started with content in terms of the omnichannel approach. But obviously, like I said, that has led us to measurement and evaluating our systems and everything else and looking at it, as you said, from the customer perspective.
Just a couple examples of campaigns. I mentioned Community First earlier, which is a great program for us. We also had a really effective Pride campaign that we launched in June that was kind of the first time we took this omnichannel approach to content, and it worked very well. But I'm particularly excited about a new loyalty program that we just launched at our mall in Short Hills, New Jersey. Because to me, this is truly, truly omnichannel, even outside of content.
What I mean by that is, I think we've really improved the customer experience, not only during their visit to the mall, but also on the app, on the website, across our emails, everything else. It really is making it a cohesive experience for them. Not just content-wise, but the UI, the UX, everything. It's really tying it all together. And for us, it simplifies the call to action. Instead of saying, "Sign up for email over here and download our app over here and follow us on social over there," we're now just saying, "Sign up for our rewards program." And you get access to all these amazing benefits. For the customer, it's much easier to digest and understand as, "Oh, I'm going to sign up for one program instead of taking five different steps to kind of connect with this brand."
Nathan Loveless: That's right. And I want to talk a little bit about your acquisition piece. But before we get there, the component there. So when you think about that omnichannel, on the back end, that's got to be a different, there's got to be a different organizational structure associated with that, a different data structure. I mean, you talked earlier about only accepting the data that you need when you need it, but also being really intentional about how you're going to use it. Sounds like you've got a real intentional approach of how you're going to use it. So has that, two questions. It sounds like we're early stages, but I'm assuming signs are positive on that. And then, what have you noticed on the back end? Has that changed the way, have you learned even or starting to see some indications on the back end data structures necessary to support a program like that, that is real structured around, here's what we're trying to give to the customer?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, I would say, we're not quite there yet. We are just starting to kind of look at this, which I'm just very, very excited about. I think we're going to get so much good insight from this program. One way or the other, to be honest, because honestly, I'm obviously I hope it's going to be very successful and I feel very optimistic about it. But I also anticipate that there will be things that we can tweak and things that we're going to get learnings from and everything else, which is why we sort of took the approach of let's pilot this at one mall and see how it goes before we roll it out across the portfolio so that hopefully when we do start rolling it out, we'll be able to kind of bake in some of those learnings.
But on the system side, I think this will really give us the opportunity to look at how are people engaging across the different channels? And really, we've been so focused on optimizing for email and optimizing for each channel independently that I'm really excited to kind of get my hands around the backend data, as you said, and see, okay, where can we kind of play with it? And where can we make improvements? So I don't have the answers there yet in terms of how we're going to use all this, but we're getting there and I'm very excited about it.
Nathan Loveless: I think that's probably more representative of folks on the phone than the other side, right? That notion of we're building things right now and we're responding to a customer that is in a different place than we talked about. One of the things I think that a lot of folks are also responding to and thinking about is this deprecation of the third-party cookie and how you talked about acquisition and you talked about even using first-party data to help with that conversation on the performance side.
Specifically, I mean, how are you viewing that transition away from a third-party cookie? Is that a big deal? Or what are your plans around that transition within the market for a digital marketer who's looking at that whole stack now from a customer engagement perspective, not just a channel engagement perspective?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, it's a great question. A big part of our strategy is paid media. And so like everyone, we've been trying to really keep a pulse on this and understand what changes are coming and how can we be in a good position. So we've tried kind of testing some new targeting strategies this year and kind of seeing what will work.
I think more than anything, it's really emphasized for us the importance of first-party data and renewing our focus on acquisition and building that database. And again, not just building the size, but also the depth of the database and understanding why people are shopping with us and how they're shopping with us and understanding their behavior so that we can start to segment our audiences a little bit better and maybe not rely so much on third parties and cookies and everything else as we go into next year. So I don't know that we'll all rely completely on first-party data. I don't think that's realistic, at least at this point. But it's certainly becoming a critical strategy for us.
Nathan Loveless: Are you thinking about, and when you think about those segmentation of the first-party data, are you thinking about even utilizing that to whatever third-party system is there, basically helping with a deeper understanding of your customers, enriching or giving a deeper understanding of your customers as they change, develop, or how are you thinking about that relationship between your first-party data and that broader performance ecosystem?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, initially helping, you know, kind of guiding the third-party systems, as you said, we do a lot of building lookalike audiences and similar to audiences. And so I think the more information we can sort of feed into those systems to help develop better, you know, develop better quality custom audiences, it's definitely going to work in our favor. So I think that they work together.
Nathan Loveless: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. That's great. Well, so what are some of the other challenges? Because, I mean, we talked about a couple of them. Number one, coming out of COVID, we've got different customer expectations. We talked about third-party cookies. We've talked about some of the organizational structures around changing the idea of a channel strategy to really omnichannel and having the customer at the center there. Not that that wouldn't be enough to really grab your arms around them, but that's not the market we exist in. Are there other topics or marketing changes that right now you're keeping a close eye on that are also on that list that are really top of mind as you're looking at the next year or so?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, I'm sure, you know, there are many others, but I would say one that is particularly top of mind for us right now is this new rollout of Apple Mail Privacy. This new loyalty program is going to be a very important messaging channel for us. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. Particularly, as we're rolling out this new loyalty program across our centers and really relying on email as an important channel, that program is going to be very important for us to understand what are the new benchmarks in email and how can we be comparing ourselves and measuring our performance? Because it's not going to be an apples-to-apples comparison to look at how we performed a year ago. Things have changed completely since then. So, looking at open rates, looking at some of our vendors that we use in the email space, and just making sure that the email experience continues to be a good one, because we're very proud of that program. But then also just understanding what are the metrics that we're getting back? And really understanding that. And I think that there's some more learning to do there.
Nathan Loveless: Within that is, does Omnichannel help you there? Because there is that notion of it's not just email. And how do you think about the relation, that relationship?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, I think Omnichannel does help. And I think Omnichannel almost makes it easier to measure in some ways. Because, instead of just kind of looking all over the place, you can really kind of get granular in your measurement and say, "How is this channel performing? How is this message performing?" And make little tweaks. And I think having the data across channels and across everything else just kind of gives you greater context into what's working and helps you identify areas where you could improve.
Nathan Loveless: I mean, one of the things that we oftentimes hear with conversations like this, and I think this may be close to that is, you talked about, there's some people who tell you they want to be communicated with one way, and then they actually behave a different way. And then there's other people who actually like to talk to you lots of different ways. And so, is there more visibility into the behaviors of the individuals, if you think Omnichannel and are tying these, not to just, how am I talking to Karen? What email did I send to Karen? But how am I, how am I having a conversation with Karen? And that, that there may be more than one way. Are you, are you starting to sort of see, or are you hoping to see the ability to get that feedback from not just the email channel, but from all of the channels and understanding the, the level of participation in a real value exchange from a customer to customer?
Karin Matthews: Absolutely. Yep. For example, let's say Nathan, you signed up for our rewards program and maybe you're not super responsive in email, or that's just not your thing, but we see you open every single push note we send.
Nathan Loveless: Yeah. That's a good example.
Karin Matthews: But, you know, looking at, you know, maybe, maybe one person is very, very responsive to push and another person is very, very responsive to email and another person is very responsive on our landing pages, for example. But looking at the individual relationship with that customer and what is messaging look like for them and what does their conversation look like and customizing it and optimizing that journey in a way that it's going to be relevant and impactful to that customer instead of just blasting everything out.
Nathan Loveless: Yeah. Well, gosh, I mean, like we said, that's another, you shame the development of this iOS tracking and how that's going to affect the feedback that you get from that particular channel. When you look at the market coming out of this last year and a half, having accelerated a digital transformation, reorganized the team, you're dealing with all of those different things. Are there certain items that you are particularly excited about in the year? And we'll actually, we'll leave this excited second. We'll end on that one. But are there things that make you nervous as you look forward? And then what are the things that make you excited about the market? That you're sitting in.
Karin Matthews: You know, I'm not sure I'm excited about everything. I would say. They're very related emotions. So that's, that's good. I think in terms of, you know, your first question about being nervous. You know, I think there's a lot of uncertainty right now. In the digital space, in the world. I think there's a lot of room for being nervous. However, I think, you know, we're all sort of in this together. And I think one thing that I've really learned is that you don't have to have all of the answers to get started.
To me, that just kind of opens up the doors for testing and learning. And finding what works and then making tweaks. So I don't feel particularly nervous about anything as much as I am excited to be in this space and to be in a position headed into next year where I feel like we're going to be able to measure some of this stuff and to be able to make those impactful changes. So I'm really excited about everything that's coming our way. I think even though there are more restrictions possibly coming down, it also opens up a new way to look at the customer journey and to measure it and to see where we can be impactful.
Nathan Loveless: That's great. There was a note there that just popped up where people really resonate with that idea of you don't have to have all the answers to get started. So that I think is helpful. Folks are obviously getting to that sense of there is a, this is a path that a lot of organizations are starting down or maybe a little part way down or maybe even farther down the path. For the folks that are listening that are at the beginning of that journey, where maybe you were a year and a half ago, do you have any words of advice? Because you've already given some really good ones on how you navigate that transition to being more data driven and omnichannel in your structures. If there's something, what, what's something that, that I think maybe if you zoom back out, that you wish you were a little bit more data that you wish you knew now, or that you wish you knew then that you would know now. And as a word of encouragement, you can provide some light on that path, which may feel a little murky right now for some folks.
Karin Matthews: Yeah, I think, the best piece of advice I could give and sort of looking backwards is just, I think this whole space can feel very scary and overwhelming. And, you know, it's easy to look at what other sophisticated companies are doing or bigger companies are doing or potentially with more resources and feel like, "Oh, that's too hard. I can't get there." Or, every business sort of has its own individual challenges or roadblocks that are preventing people from getting started. And I think if you kind of take this approach of crawl, walk, run, and just take one piece at a time, what can you do right now and then do it? And then I usually find that once you do the first thing, you'll sort of be motivated to do the next thing and the next thing. And then it sort of just kind of becomes easier and will kind of fall into place. For me, the getting started was the hardest part. It felt very overwhelming. But once I kind of broke it down and didn't necessarily look at where do I want to be a year from now, but looked at what could I do right now that might make an impact in the next three months and kind of break it down and make it a little bit more simple. That was a really helpful approach to me. And I would advise that that's kind of a good way to start.
Secondly, I would say, it's just kind of a repeat of what I said earlier, but there's a lot of resources out there and a lot of people that are willing to help. And I felt like everybody's ahead of me. Everybody knows the answers. Everybody, you know, what am I missing? How come everybody else has this figured out? And the truth is, most people don't. At least in my experience, I think there's a lot of really passionate marketers out there and a lot of people who are excited to figure out what comes next in this new space and to try to create a really valuable program for their customers. But I think, you know, you don't have to figure it out by yourself. I think, you know, there's resources out there and there's people that can help you. And that it's probably easier than you think it will be to get started. At least it was in our case.
Nathan Loveless: Great. Well, listen, we've got a bunch of other questions and we're getting to that point. So one more question. As you look at that transition in the last year and the, all of the different components that you've had to go through, and then you look at where you are now, was that transition worth it? And if so, how?
Karin Matthews: Yeah, I would say it's definitely worth it. I, you know, I will be careful in saying that a lot of this, like I said, we're in the really early stages. So, I don't want to sit here and say like, "Oh yeah, we got it all figured out. And, you know, we're rock stars." I think we're definitely learning. But so the, I guess the fruit of all of this in terms of, you know, building those customer relationships and seeing the traffic and sales, like I said, we're ahead of where we thought we were going to be right now. So I feel like that is a very, very good sign, you know, headed into Q4 and into next year that we are doing the right things. But, more short term, I think it's definitely been worth it just from the team perspective and the results that we've been putting out. Even just going back to the content, reducing the amount of duplicate work that we were doing and finding opportunities to streamline processes and sort of those more short term internal benefits from a team perspective has definitely been worth it. And I think all of those things, hopefully a year from now, we'll be saying we're definitely worth it from a revenue perspective. So that remains to be seen, but I feel very optimistic.
Nathan Loveless: We'll just have another conversation and we can check in on that point and see how things are going. Well, listen, Karen, this was great. I think we've got about 20 minutes here left. I'd love to, I've seen a bunch of questions come in. So Haley, are there some questions for the, from the, from the group that may make sense for us to spend the next 15 or so?
Haley: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Nathan and Karen. We are going to get into those questions now. But please don't hesitate to keep submitting them, everybody. We have a ton of them in the queue already, but we're going to start with this question from Brett. And I'll start with you on this, Karen. And Brett's question is, what's the biggest change you noticed in marketing technology over the course of the year?
Karin Matthews: Oh, that's a good question. So we've done a considerable evaluation of our vendors and our systems to keep this in place. I would say I have been really surprised by how quickly all of the different systems are changing and constantly putting out product releases and product features to keep up with the changing environment. I'll throw props over to Blueshift; in the last few months, they recently updated their journey builder. I'm probably going to get the language wrong, but we just created this brand new customer journey as part of this loyalty program. The technology really is there now to be able to support all of this type of omnichannel messaging that we're talking about much more so than it was even two years ago. So I would just say, in terms of what I've noticed, it's rapidly evolving, and there are a lot of easy ways to kind of put this in place now because the technology is there to support it.
Haley: Great. Thank you. We're going to go to a question that I have in here from Peyton and Nathan, obviously feel free to jump in on any of these answers as well, but we'll start with Karen again. Karen's question or Peyton's question is how do we incentivize customers to provide data? Are older methods still working or do we need to adapt? And also how often is it appropriate to do data collection, both for ensuring we have good quantity, but also not annoying our customers?
Karin Matthews: I think that some of that needs to be relevant to your specific business. So, I can't answer that question specifically for you. In our case, I will say that a lot of the sort of traditional methods of acquisition are still relevant in providing that value exchange. So, whether it's download a free white paper or get 25% off or an offer or something like that, I'm not sure what you've got to offer your customers. But in our case, even small sort of value propositions seem to go a long way. Sweepstakes are a good one for us. If you give us your email address, you're entered to win into a sweepstakes type of thing. And we've seen those perform very well. So I don't think that it needs to be a huge prize or a huge value. It just needs to be something that is unique to your business that you think will be relevant to your customer and will make them say, "Hey, that's worth giving you my email address for." I think that comes back to feeling like, are you asking them for the earth, moon, and the sun for your free white paper? Or are you asking them for just an email address? So I think you have to be a little bit careful about what you're asking for in exchange. If there's a bigger incentive, then sometimes you can get more data, but that needs to be done in an appropriate way.
Karin Matthews: (Continues) And I would say in terms of, I was going to answer just the second part really quick, which I believe was around frequency. I think again, that kind of changes business to business. We have a practice in place where we kind of clean out our database based on engagement. It varies by channel. On the email side, it's around like six months. If you've not engaged, then we'll start to do some health checks and cleanup around that.
Nathan Loveless: The only thing I was going to add is I think a lot of those conversations about "when is an appropriate way?" have a lot to do with, "Well, what are you going to do with it?" If the purpose of collecting it isn't driven around the idea of how can I make the customer experience better as a result of this, then you've got some questions to ask. And part of that is just, do you have the technical capability of doing that? So we see a lot of engagement in our organization around optimization capabilities and the ability to do things like predictions and even recommendations that allow that next message to be the one that somebody really wanted to. I think in this day and age where every one of our Netflix home screens is different, we have recommendations following us all over the place, user experience, and it's never been more important. And it's never been easier for us to find somebody else who can help us. If it isn't valuable and we aren't thinking about it in an omnichannel way of what's the customer trying to do right now, you can get into some really sticky situations where that line between annoying and helpful can be razor thin.
Karin Matthews: Yeah, that's a good point. There are some companies in my inbox that have blown way past that fine line of annoying or helpful.
Haley: All right, great. Thanks. We're moving along here. And this question comes from, and I apologize if I mispronounce this name, but Anupam. The question is, are you following the same strategy now that the malls have opened up for customers and the customers are back? Or is there anything that you are doing differently? And if so, what are you doing differently? And I'll send that to you, Karen.
Karin Matthews: Yeah. So we are doing some things differently. I think we've taken, as I said, when the malls were closed, we really had to change our message and strategy. And there were some pieces of that that we've kept. I would say, we've seen some changing customer demographics that are now shopping with us. So the story for us has been, how do we market to this new customer? For a while, our messaging was geared around certain demographics that are not shopping with us necessarily anymore. So how do we kind of reach that new customer and what do we look at? And what do they expect to see from us? Because it's different than what the previous expectation was. And part of that is, we're all still kind of learning what that looks like. But that really helped accelerate our push to get this loyalty program and start nurturing these new customers that are now shopping with us, and developing those one-to-one relationships with them.
Haley: All right. Karen, we're keeping you in the hot seat. Everybody had, we had a lot of questions coming in for you. So this question comes from Candy. Candy's question is, how much time did it take you to create your omnichannel program that you had mentioned? And how much time did that take, including getting the buy-in? And we always get questions about buy-in.
Karin Matthews: Yeah, good question. So we really started kind of looking at this approach, I would say like mid-2020. Once the malls closed in spring of 2020, we were sort of scrambling a bit to figure out how we were going to stay relevant and what this new world looked like. Then when the malls reopened and we identified that the customer experience was really changing and we needed to take advantage of it, we started really looking at this probably summer of 2020. Then started really putting the pieces in place around February or March of this year in terms of getting our systems in place, developing the content committee, understanding what data we needed to collect to make this approach work, and how we were going to collect it. So I would say conceptually, it's probably been a year and a half, but it was just within the last probably eight, nine months that we actually started doing the work.
Haley: All right. Here's kind of a fun one for you, Karen. It comes from Peyton. Peyton's question is, what accomplishment have you been most proud of during all of this for you and your team?
Karin Matthews: Wow. That's a great question. Two things come to mind. One, I keep talking about this rewards program, but it was a huge undertaking for us. Not only was it a new program in terms of what we are delivering to the customer (both in center and on our digital channels), but it also forced us to really look at all of our digital channels and what the experience looks like. I'm really proud of the fact that we were able to create this cohesive experience while delivering value at the same time. There were a lot of moving pieces to bring that together, and working with the local team at the center – I cannot give them enough credit for pulling this all together; without their help, it would have never happened. So I'm very, very proud of that. And just getting all of the channels kind of lined up to be able to support each other and really turn it into an omnichannel effort.
The second piece is I am really proud of this content committee, which I've been talking about, just because it really was a new approach for us in the way that we looked at things and the way that our team was structured, giving people ownership over different areas and kind of watching them flourish and bring new ideas to the table and new approaches for how we could deliver some of this stuff has been really exciting.
Haley: All right. Still have some time. So we're going to take some questions while we have it. The next question is from Nick. Will you be using AI to connect with customers in ever-changing environments? And if so, what might be some advantages or vice versa drawbacks to that?
Karin Matthews: Good question. I would say this is on our roadmap. We have not really gotten too far into AI yet. There are some things I'm excited to start testing next year. Even through Blueshift, for example, we've been using send time optimization and things like that. But there are some other predictive behaviors and predictive modeling within the Blueshift platform that we've not really been in a position to explore yet. So I'm really looking forward to getting into that. I think AI could be a very beneficial and important part of our strategy, but we've not really tackled that piece yet.
Haley: From Ankur, the question is, "Karen, I agree with having an action to bias is the most important part to getting to, to get crawling and iterating based on learnings. But what caution should we take to maintain the right balance of horizon one versus horizon two efforts? As in, how do we make sure we don't get consumed by incremental or tactical items and miss some strategic parts?"
Karin Matthews: Yeah, that's a very good question. And I think that makes a lot of sense when you've got too many moving pieces. It's easy to miss something or for things to fall through the cracks. So, not knowing where it makes sense for every person to start on this journey, I would just kind of say, where do you feel like you've got a handle on things and you've got some confidence and some control to be able to do a good test? And like I said, I would just kind of take baby steps and take one piece at a time. Once you've got the first piece good and you feel great about that, then move on to the next. But I wouldn't try to tackle too much at once.
Nathan Loveless: I think there's also a balance there where, to your point, to the tactical component, one of the things that we continue to see with customers we're chatting with and folks who are in this kind of a journey is really getting their arms wrapped around, "How do we know we're done with what we did first?" Because if you don't know you're done, it's really hard to move on to the next item. So there's got to be some definition. And sometimes that can be as simple as, "We know we have a workflow that we're doing either manually or through the next item. Can we just put those two together into one customer journey?" And then once it's there, see what happens. That's enough to wrap your arms around, get some operational components, sort of do those kinds of pieces. And as long as that moment is pointed in the right direction of, "We want to be more efficient. We want to be more measure-driven. We want to have moments that are cross-channel, if not on the way to being omnichannel." As long as it's directionally accurate and you understand that, "Oh, now we're done," then you know you're going down the road and you can have a moment of adjustment. So that moment of, "Yes, we have finished this," is almost as critical as defining what the things are. We see that all the time.
Karin Matthews: That's a great point, Nathan. I completely agree.
Haley: All right. We are going to release both of you from the hot seat now. We're coming up on the top of the hour. So thank you both so much for taking the time to be here with us today. We had a ton, and I mean a ton of questions coming in. So unfortunately, we aren't able to get to them all. But thank you all for your participation. We may be able to follow up if time allows. So thanks again, everybody in the audience. We really appreciate it. Today's webinar has been recorded. You're going to receive a link to that recording in a follow-up email. Please allow one to two business days for that to be in your inbox. But in the meantime, Karen and Nathan, thank you both again. I just want to say that once more. We really appreciate you both taking the time to be here with our audience. And thanks to Blueshift for sponsoring today's event. We really appreciate your support here at CMS Wire. And like I said earlier, it's always a pleasure to work with the team there. So thank you once more to Blueshift for sponsoring today's event. If your company is interested in sponsoring an event like today's, just email us at webinars@CMSWire.com, and someone will be in touch. But in the meantime, thank you, everybody, for taking time out of your day and joining us. And we'll see you on the next webinar.