View Transcript
Speakers:
- Manny Francis: Director of Customer Success, Blueshift
- Shamir Duverseau: Co-Founder & Managing Director, Smart Panda Labs
Welcome and Introduction
Manny Francis: My name is Manny Francis, Director of Customer Success here at Blueshift. Today, we're talking about your MarTech stack and a continuous improvement approach. Our conversation will cover, but not exclusively contain elements of, the following topics:
- The "set it and forget it" approach, which is now largely a fallacy in the MarTech landscape.
- How to evaluate your tech.
- How to decide when you need to buy and when you might not.
- Why a continuous improvement approach is more important than ever in today's changing MarTech landscape.
Again, I'm Manny Francis with Blueshift. We'll talk a little bit more about Blueshift today, but a lot more about marketing technology. To that end, I'm joined by Shamir Duverseau from Smart Panda Labs. We've got a lot of experience and knowledge in this area. Shamir, please introduce yourself.
Shamir Duverseau: Thanks, Manny. As you mentioned, I'm Shamir Duverseau, Managing Director here with Smart Panda Labs. We're a digital consulting agency. We help organizations, especially those in the earlier stages of digital adoption, figure out how they can strategize, build, and then optimize those digital experience tactics that are so important today. I'm excited to talk about how marketing technology plays an important role in that.
Manny Francis: Super, and we're lucky to have you. I'll stay away from the mute button as much as possible for the next at least 30 minutes. We've got a lot to talk about.
As most of us are aware, Blueshift is a maker of a Smart Hub CDP. This is a platform that connects customer data from across your organization, enhances it with marketer-friendly AI, and allows you to orchestrate omnichannel campaigns from a single platform.
However, we're not just here to talk about Blueshift. Usually, MarTech webinars are about "buy now" or "this amazing new solution is going to solve all your problems." But we know that there's no silver bullet, and we know that the buying process takes some time in MarTech, especially if you want to get it right.
Shamir, can you start by telling us what makes you so passionate about solving this very challenging problem that marketers are facing today?
Why is Continuous Change Imperative in MarTech?
Shamir Duverseau: Certainly. You know, there's an old saying that change is the world's only constant. Just taking the sample of the last 18 months, the change we've seen has been off the charts. So there's that need to constantly change what we're doing as marketers to adapt to:
- What's happening in the market.
- What competitors are doing.
- How people are changing and how their demographics and psychographics are constantly shifting.
Yet, we often get stuck in this thought process that, "Okay, once I set this up and build this and get this going, that's it. It's hands off and I'm good to go." And it's going to run itself magically. That obviously cannot happen. It has to shift with how everything else is shifting around it. This is what gets us at Smart Panda Labs very excited: how do we set this up? How do we create these processes to allow these things to shift and adjust based on all these forces that are constantly shifting around them?
Manny Francis: Cool. So change is the constant. We've got to accept that. As marketers and technologists, we sort of understand that. But at the same time, I don't think we want to be tinkering or changing all the time. So what do you think is the right balance of building a foundation of technology that you can iterate upon, so that you can get the best of today's solutions, but also make sure that you're not always tinkering?
Shamir Duverseau: It's definitely about saying, "Okay, what's the right foundation and what's the right framework here?" And how does that framework allow for the possibility of change within that framework? The tactics are constantly changing, right? The activation, the activities that you're engaging in with your consumers, with your existing customers, prospects, what have you. But that doesn't mean technology needs to change that often. It just means the technology needs to be set up. It needs to be established in such a way that it allows you to make those changes on a very consistent basis. It allows you to shift and adjust and adapt. And if you have the right technology set up in the right way, that's what it's going to do. It's going to empower you to be able to make those kinds of changes.
Manny Francis: So what you're saying is as the market conditions change and maybe certain channels of marketing communications are more favorable to an audience, that a foundational approach will allow you to pivot rather quickly into those new avenues that we'd like to reach as marketers.
Shamir Duverseau: Exactly, exactly. Ultimately, the best place to be, the Shangri-La we're looking for, is that culture of experimentation. It's the constant learning, it's the constant change mentality. But as you alluded to earlier, you cannot be changing your technology that often. You can't have a culture of experimentation when it comes to technology. That's cost prohibitive, time prohibitive, resource prohibitive. That's just not going to work. So quite the contrary, you need to say, "If we're going to have this culture, what is the technology foundation and infrastructure that's going to allow us to be able to empower and accelerate that culture?"
Manny Francis: Fantastic. A light bulb has come on in my head. There are many different types of tools out there. Some of them could be considered mandatory. For example, a plumber needs a monkey wrench. So if we could talk about the foundational parts of a tech stack, and preferably maybe the ones that you might not want to change so much. For those of you in the audience, we're going to play a little game called "Acronym Bingo," which is a fun way to introduce a poll. Shamir is going to tell us a little bit about foundational elements of the MarTech stack, and you might look in your chat after he's done to see some poll questions.
What are the Foundational Elements of the MarTech Stack?
Shamir Duverseau: The easiest way to think about it is kind of a circle. You start with data. From data, you drive to insights. Insights drive actions. Actions yield more data. And then you start that cycle over again. So if you think about that, you're thinking about a technology stack that allows you to do each of those things.
You need to be able to:
- Gather and put together data about your customers.
- Derive insights from that data.
- Use that data to take action.
- Experiment on that data and then gather additional information so that you can start that cycle over again and use it to gather additional insights and continuously revolve around that.
If you have the right technology stack to accomplish those key components, then you know you're starting in the right place.
Manny Francis: Fantastic. So we started with customer data. Ultimately, customer data in the marketing space historically has been somewhat separate. You talked about this circular approach of the flywheel. I think that's reactive to where data used to live, which was separate from the ability to act upon it. So if you can talk about that aspect of it.
We've got a poll out there, this was the gimme. We like to start out with the gimme, and I like to see if we've got some good positive responses so far. From a CRM standpoint, that's kind of where we used to talk about customers, but we've shifted to a different acronym of late. Can you talk about that side of customer data and what it means today?
Shamir Duverseau: As you mentioned, CRMs are still obviously very important for many companies; they are the source of truth and the source of record for that customer information. But as we mentioned, you need to be able to move throughout the entire flywheel. You need to move through that cycle. And because of the nature of the world we live in today, it's got to be real-time or very near real-time to be able to move from data to insight to action and back to data again, and continuously turn that flywheel.
In a sense, thinking about a wheel that you want to spin as fast as possible, you want to pick up speed and momentum. So now all of a sudden you need systems that talk to each other in real-time and that allow you to move immediately from data to insight and then to action, and then to be able to measure what's happening.
So you take a customer relationship management tool like a CRM. Often, that needs to talk to another tool that we're going to talk about: a CDP. That way, the CDP is able to put together all that data and then ultimately push it out for activation to other systems. So now you're gathering the data, you're deriving insight from the data by being able to stitch it together. And then you're immediately able to activate it to push it out so that you can say, "Okay, we're going to trigger this SMS message based on this information," or "We're going to trigger this email communication," or "We're going to trigger this retargeting ad or this module on the website," whatever the case may be, based on that data. Again, happening near real-time based on reactions of what's coming into the system, and then immediately getting pushed out.
Manny Francis: Absolutely. I think that's a great description. We threw in another acronym there that we didn't put in our poll: CDP, Customer Data Platform. We expected our audience to understand that one, as Blueshift is a certified CDP. But it's great that everybody got, we had over 50% participation and 100% correct answers on the customer relationship management as a piece of historical technology in the marketer stack.
You mentioned CDP. Do you feel like CDP is a foundational element, a must-have for modern marketers?
Shamir Duverseau: I really do. There are lots of different forms that CDPs can take. There's a Smart Hub CDP that of course Blueshift offers, and more traditional CDP models that are out there. But in some form or fashion, data is coming into your organization from multiple points, right? So the CRM is one, there's point-of-sale systems, there's different points of interaction. The data is coming in from multiple places. There needs to be some way to stitch all that together, because that's the customer expectation.
They expect that you're going to have an understanding of their level of interaction. And we know we all expect it, because we've all had that frustration where we get a call, or perhaps we make a call about some product or service we have, and they're asking us questions like, "Well, you sold it to me, don't you know the answer? Why do you need me to tell you what I bought, or what I own, or how many years my warranty is?" Customers expect that if they're talking to one company, it's one place where all the data is, you're going to put all that data together, and then you're going to be able to deal with me and give me the kind of experience I expect. So a CDP is an integral piece, it's a powerful way to do that, to be able to stitch that together and get that 360 holistic view of the customer.
Manny Francis: Fantastic. I'm super glad you mentioned that holistic view of the customer, because we feel that that 360 view, that holistic view, is really what's giving the power back to the marketers, so that they can understand. I'm laughing at one of the poll answers, I love it. So I put out there, "What is a MAP or a MAP?" And we got some good answers coming back so far. You know, it might be the thing that you connect to your CDP. So that holistic view of the customers that you have, that you've now harnessed for the marketers right there in front of them, they're able to action upon it. And we feel that that's kind of how the flywheel should work, right? That holistic view of the customer, those activities around the customer, and those updates like you talked about, preferably in real-time.
As we think about this sort of real-time nature and all of these channels that we may be connected to with our MAP, I'm chuckling, I'll go ahead and publish the results now and share them. Our audience did know that we were talking about a marketing automation platform by and large, and some of us remember using a MAP prior to CDP days. So that's good as well.
Talk to me about those expectations about real-time capabilities and how necessary it might be to action upon your client's engagement.
Shamir Duverseau: Again, it goes back to the expectations of the modern-day consumer. You go online and you make an e-commerce purchase. Think about how much patience do you have for when you get that confirmation email? Not very much. You expect it to come pretty instantaneously. If it takes longer than a few minutes, you might begin to think something's wrong. "Did my purchase go through? Did my credit card get rejected? Was there an error on the website?" For better or for worse, we're an instant gratification society. So we expect things to happen immediately based on the actions that we take.
When that doesn't happen, we begin to question things. Doubt enters in. "Something's wrong. Something's broken. There was an error. I made a mistake. The company made a mistake." And that's what you don't want associated with your brand. You don't want doubt, error, or negativity associated with your brand. Because now the perception of your brand is going to be carried there with that particular person. And that perception will continue to spread. So you've got to be able to meet them in real-time in a real way.
Again, connecting the data to the activation becomes that critical component. So that immediately when an action happens, whether that's in the call center or on the website or the mobile app, that immediately is activated in action. Then you immediately get that SMS message or you get that email or the website changes and personalizes, wherever the case may be, based on that action. Because ultimately, it's a confirmation to you. Even when it's not a formal confirmation message, it's a confirmation to you, the consumer, of, "Okay, they got it. Like this worked. This happened the way it's supposed to." And now you feel good. Now you relax. Some friction has been reduced from the experience.
Manny Francis: That's a great explanation and really good. Sometimes we think of the fear factor in marketing, right? What could go wrong? This is a really good explanation of the customer's activities that necessitate or at least benefit from a real-time or near real-time environment.
I want to open up to the audience that we are taking questions. I see at least a couple of them starting to come in, and we'll address those questions here in a couple minutes. We're a little bit past the halfway point.
How Can Marketers Evaluate and Optimize Their MarTech Stack?
Manny Francis: You had mentioned, Shamir, that we want to be constantly evaluating. We don't want to tinker too much, but we want to make sure that we know what our stack can do for us and what we want it to do for us. So I have kind of two questions.
For a marketer operating today, sending emails, with some form of analysis and reporting and attribution:
- What's the right way to get started with the analysis? How do I divide my greatest resource, which is time, and take it away from the marketing activities I'm doing today so that I could start to analyze the stack?
- In that process, maybe to further the thought process for somebody new to this, are there some pieces to the stacks and tools that are either falling out of favor or maybe the functionality of those tools has been absorbed by some other tools and now it's more common? So how do we get started? And then what are some areas that we should look at if we think we have some fat that we can cut out of our stack?
Shamir Duverseau: Both good questions. I think the way I like to think about this is you think about buying a house and you think about making that kind of investment in time. When you think about your house, typically you're trying to think about what's going to fit the needs of my family, of myself and my family. So do you have multiple kids? Do you have one kid? Do you have no kids? How old are the kids? How long are they going to be in the house? How long do we plan to be in this area? All these different things are factoring in. And then based on that, you say, "Okay, well, this is the kind of house we're looking for. And this is the part of town we want to live in," and so forth.
It's the same thing with technology. Jim Collins always talks about technology as an accelerator of momentum, not the creator of it. So technology is a tool. It's a means to an end. It is not that end. The end is what you're trying to accomplish as a marketer. It's the tactic that you're putting out in the marketplace and the results you want to see from the tactics.
So if you think about it in that sense, then really what's driving your evaluation of technology is your evaluation of your marketing planning and your tactics. Once you've got those in place, or however often you evaluate those (yearly or quarterly), you're therefore forced to ask yourself at that point, "Does the technology I have, is it enabling me to do what I now feel like I need to execute from a marketing standpoint?" And that's your evaluation point. If those things match up, then you're fine. I'm simplifying it, obviously, but your evaluation is fundamentally over. It's like, "Great. It can allow me to do what I want to do. It can allow me to do what I'm thinking about doing and where my roadmap is taking me from a marketing planning standpoint."
But if you're finding that you're hitting bumps along the road, that it's not quite meeting up, those things aren't fitting together. Well, now you know that friction, that's causing you to take a step back and say, "Okay, is this the right tool for me today? Is this going to be the right tool for me tomorrow? What do I need to change? How do I need to be looking at this?" A lot of that has to do with obviously having the right tools in place, which for the most part, most of us have kind of those key tools in place that we feel like we need to use from a data standpoint. So a CRM, from an activation standpoint, a marketing automation platform or email platform, whatever the case may be.
But what often happens is maybe the tools don't allow us to do the kind of marketing we want to do. They don't allow for the testing experimentation we want to do. They don't allow for the personalization that we want to do or segmentation or whatever the case may be. And we're fortunate because any modern tool should have a pretty well-drawn-out product roadmap, saying, "This is what the capabilities are today, and this is where we want to take the capabilities."
So you kind of alluded to what's kind of the yellow light to kind of say, "Hey, there might be a problem here." Well, if the product that you're using lacks a roadmap, if they don't know where they're trying to take the tool or where they're trying to go, well, that's a problem because you know as a marketer, you need to move in a certain direction. And if the tool doesn't even know what direction it's moving in, then how can it possibly align? But I think it really comes down to saying, "What are my tactics as a marketer? What's my marketing plan? What's my roadmap for that? And how does the tool and its roadmap align or misalign with that roadmap?" And that's really going to point you in the right direction in terms of, are we set here? Are we good to go? Or do we need to take a pause and reevaluate what we're doing?
Manny Francis: Yeah, that was a great summary of how to analyze the stack. One of the things that came out of that, that's interesting, I've not quite heard it described in that way. We talk about vendors, we talk about tools or products, and we talk about partners. What you said is so powerful: the product roadmap, or the roadmap of the vendor or partner you're working with, even their market vision, is important when you're analyzing tools. Because as we've accepted, change is the constant. We expect the marketing landscape to be different 12 months from now than it is today. With that in mind, are the partners you're working with, the tools you're engaging in, also on that evolution? Are they going to be different a year from now?
Back to Blueshift a little bit, we're not always a Smart Hub CDP, right? That's part of the evolution of what marketers need, what the market is demanding. And some of this synthesis of features and robust integration is really what the market is demanding, and has necessitated the growth and the evolution. I thought that was really right on point.
We did publish another poll here. Some of you had the sense that we would ask this question, and most of you had the sense to answer correctly that an ESP is your Email Service Provider. We talked also about the siloed approach, and how back in the day, an audience might be separated from an ESP. But today, that siloed approach is very much different. It's that integrated approach. And the ESP is integrated in the marketing automation platform, which should be very integrated with your CDP, giving you that flywheel.
So, how should marketers manage channels and channel execution within their MarTech stack?
Shamir Duverseau: So, you know, we kind of alluded to the fact that you have that experience where you call and, again, you have that, "Don't you know this about me?" The consumer looks at you as one company. They don't care how many different divisions you have and departments and tools and the fact that those tools don't talk to each other. That's irrelevant to them. They're completely ignorant to that the overwhelming majority of the time.
So they expect that if you are sending them an SMS message, that that message is saying the same thing as the email communication is. And it's saying the same thing that the website is. And it's saying the same thing that the app is. So you've got all these channels, but they've all got to be aligned. The communication along those channels, the information, the content all has to be in sync and aligned. And that can certainly happen with multiple tools. It can happen with using a Smart Hub CDP where that activation all comes from one central point. But whatever the case is, they've got to be in sync. They've got to be aligned. They've got to be saying the same thing.
And oftentimes we pass on the issues technologically or organizationally, or both, that we have in our companies. We pass those on to the consumer, and we make some odd assumption that they should get that, that they should understand when really the exact opposite is true. And the ones that do it best do it by hiding any other issues and kind of back-of-the-house problems from the consumer. It may be a mess back there, but they find a way to hide that from the consumer because they understand that's what the expectation is. But of course, the more work you have to do to hide your problems, the higher the time, the higher the resources, the higher costs. So if you can create a technology foundation that actually allows that to happen in real-time, in a real way, it's fully integrated. Well, now you're not really having to hide anything. That's the kind of experience you're delivering end to end, and you're doing it with less time commitment, with fewer resources, and with a lower cost.
Manny Francis: Great, great description. Marketing departments do not want to be in the housekeeping business, right? So we should keep the house as orderly as possible. I'll remind folks again that we're open for question and answer time. We're coming to the bottom of the half hour here, and I did just get a great question.
Who Should Be Involved in Assessing Your MarTech Stack?
Manny Francis: The question directly from an attendee is: Who should be involved in assessing your current MarTech stack? Is it IT? Is it the marketing department? Should your vendors be involved? Is it an agency necessary, or when is it beneficial?
I think that's a burning question. I'll backtrack a little bit. There used to be this conversation of like, "Who owns MarTech? Is it marketing? Is it the CMO? Or is it operations?" And then there became marketing operations and MOPs, and it could still be IT. So in this instance, who do we include? Who do we need to include? And, you know, who's beneficial in the process?
Shamir Duverseau: I mean, obviously it's going to be different with every organization, but in the room always needs to be the business side. So that's marketing or that's product, or whoever's kind of running the business or responsible for those business results. And it needs to be IT. And those two groups on a large scale, those two groups of people need to be in sync. They need to be aligned, right? Because ultimately the organization, the business is trying to accomplish something, and marketing is tasked with these tactics and activities to accomplish it. And IT is tasked with saying, "Well, here are the tools you need to accomplish it." Again, you can't separate those two things. They've got to be in sync. You've got these tactics and these tools that allow you to deliver on those tactics in order to get to where the organization wants to go. So when you think about it in that way, there needs to be complete and consistent alignment between marketing and IT.
Now, the other question you kind of raised was, "Well, do you need to get a third party involved, perhaps an agency or another partner?" It depends on what you have internally. We find a lot of times when we get involved, a lot of our time and energy is actually spent getting kind of marketing and IT at the same table and kind of saying, "Okay, let's get together and have a conversation." And it's not to say that they don't get along. Some organizations, they don't get along, but that's not always the case. But a lot of times it's really more about kind of translating. It's kind of being a translator. It's kind of saying, "Okay, let's take what marketing wants and translate that. And put that into a way that IT understands. And the challenges that IT now has, okay, let's translate that and help marketing understand the challenges they have and how they're vocalizing those challenges." And once you're able to translate and you're able to have a productive conversation, well, now it's like, "Okay, now we're on the same page and now we can actually move forward and accomplish something." So that's usually where we see the friction and the challenges. Not that those two departments can't get along necessarily, but they're not necessarily speaking the same language, and the messages aren't getting across. And because of that, just like, you know, if you're in a room with a stranger and you don't speak your language, it's going to be hard to move forward. You can't move that conversation forward until you clearly understand each other.
Manny Francis: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think this will probably be our last poll we put out there. You know, what does DXO stand for? And we're talking about digital experience optimization. But what you talked about really is digital experience kind of definition, right? What is the experience that you want your clients to have largely digitally? And how do we technically (that's the IT department) deliver that? So I think, yeah, that's really the foundation of what we're talking about today.
I think, yeah, we're at the bottom of the hour. And I think I was told that if we can speak productively for 30 minutes, that that's a big win. I feel like we could go on a lot longer than that. We do have to be respectful of people's day. Give you another minute or two here. If you have a question, please go ahead and type it into the Q&A area or the chat for everybody to see.
When is it Time to Replace MarTech?
Manny Francis: One question that we have considered is: Are there any sort of telltale signs that it's time to remove or more likely replace a piece of technology in the tech stack? Is that coming back to the roadmap that it's not able to grow? Are there other sort of red flags there maybe around integrations or complexity of integrating with some of your preferred tools? But what can you say about how to decide that a tool or technology is no longer for you?
Shamir Duverseau: I'm going to try to boil this down to the simplest way I could think to kind of express it. When you start hearing people, whether it's your vendor or perhaps your IT department, when you start hearing people say, "Yeah, we can't do that," then there's a problem.
Because what's likely happened is that you've experienced something in the marketplace. You've had an experience. You went somewhere and you bought something. You had an interaction with a brand, whatever, and you got a push notification or you got an SMS or you got this cool email or you had this experience on the website. And then you bring it back to your internal team or your vendor or whatever the case is and say, "Oh, this was great. I'd love to be able to do this and that." And they say, "Yeah, we can't do that." When you start hearing that, that's the sign that there's a problem.
It's fine to say, "You know, actually that's going to be part of our next release." Okay, great. You can deal with that. "Yeah, we can do that. We just have to make a couple of configuration changes." Okay. You know, we can work with that. But a lot of people are hearing, "Yeah, we can't do that." When you start thinking, "We can't do that," that's a problem. Because that means that someone isn't keeping up with the marketplace, and they're not attempting to keep up with the marketplace. And in modern business, you can't afford that. You just can't tolerate that.
Manny Francis: Yeah, that's a clear and obvious one. We always try to think about "how," right? And if the answer today is "no," the answer tomorrow should be "maybe." And is this good for you? Is it the right move? So yeah, I appreciate that. If you hear "no," that's likely not the way to go.
Case Study: Bridging Online and Offline Experiences
Manny Francis: We're about to wrap. I did want to ask, squeeze in one more question before we ask how we can get in touch with you and learn more about Smart Panda Labs. That'll be the last question. I was wondering, I know that you work with a lot of different clients. And we talk a lot about different customers or users of marketing technology, maybe anywhere on a very wide spectrum of the marketing evolution curve. I'm wondering if you could pull one or two examples, a snapshot of the folks that you're working with, and maybe explain in a little bit more detail, like a problem that they were encountering, and how you solved it by adjusting the tech stack. I think that'll be a good way to kind of bring this to reality. And then I know that we'll be very, very happy to hear how we can get in touch with you as well.
Shamir Duverseau: Yeah. So we work with a few clients where a lot of the issue is, obviously, they have a digital presence, but the actual sale takes place offline. Real estate is a good example of that as an industry, where the transaction a lot of times is actually taking place offline. And what we found is there's a complete wall between what happens online and what happens offline. And again, that wall is purely technological or organizational. It is not the expectation of the consumer. The consumer is assuming there is no wall. I'm interacting with you as an organization as a brand.
So where we found technology to be helpful, in particular, in this case, the CDP use case to be helpful, is for it to be that hub, right? That line of communication between what's happening online and then ultimately what happens offline. And especially because usually that offline sales cycle takes time as well, especially the larger the sale, typically the longer the sales cycle. So now a person has certain milestones they're hitting as they go through that offline sales cycle. Well, you'd like that to be reflected online. You'd like communications to go out to help nurture the person, help educate the person, to give them the content that they need.
So we have found CDP, and especially Smart Hub CDPs like Blueshift, to be very helpful in solving that problem and in keeping that connection point between what's happening offline, but then helping display that and reflect that in a digital experience online. So that the person is constantly getting caught in that omnichannel experience that's helping to drive them through the conversion.
Manny Francis: Great example. Offline interactions are a great example of siloed communications: events, real estate closings, things like that. We think any sort of siloed activity would benefit from that Smart Hub CDP approach. Even if it's a digital experience, you can pull it into that holistic view. So fantastic.
Shamir, it was great talking with you today. Like I said, we could probably do this for quite a bit more time. But you and I and everybody in the attendee room has a busy day. So I'll thank everybody again for joining. I'm really happy that you're here. Shamir, Smart Panda Labs seems like it's got a lot of good things going on. I think we probably have some interest out there. How do we get in touch with you?
Shamir Duverseau: Yeah, please feel free to reach out to the website, smartpandalabs.com, or Google us at Smart Panda Labs, or just feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You can get my name from the email or wherever you signed up, and I guarantee you there will not be another Shamir Duverseau on LinkedIn. I will very likely be the only one. So you're pretty sure that if you reach out to me, you'll get connected to me. So you should be good.
Manny Francis: Fantastic. Looking forward to that. Thank you again, everyone, for joining. You know how to find us, blueshift.com. And we look forward to seeing you at the next webinar. Thank you.
Shamir Duverseau: Bye everyone.